sam:
How goes your blogging?
Link it.
Mark:
http://myarbitrarilyreigningking.blogspot.com/
Fine, I'll help you procrastinate.
sam:
Enabler.
Mark:
Better than the opposite, it's your freedom.
sam:
Not all people are well suited to freedom.
Mark:
Well, you have the freedom to try and restrict your freedom. I won't do it for you.
sam:
Russian Nihilist!
Mark:
no clue what that means!
sam:
I'm not sure if there is anything that distinguishes that categorization from normal Nihilism, but Russians were most susceptible to the allure of Nihilism.
Mark:
Extreme scepticism, maintaining that nothing has a real existence?
sam:
Yeah.
Mark:
Ok.
Whatever I am, I like it. And it is more right than the other answers
because relativism allows for all those other answers as well
sam:
I struggle to decide what philosophy I find to be the most evil, but Nihilism is near the top
Mark:
I make no claim to be a nihilist, and thus won't defend it, but why?
sam:
Because it destroys all value and meaning leaving nothing but emptiness.
It's suitable only for people who only care about themselves.
Mark:
Eww, that is the OPPOSITE of the truth, if you're talking about what I am.
sam:
I'm talking about Nihilism.
You art thou.
Mark:
I still don't feel confident I truly know what nihilism is yet. I just have that you called me one as a clue.
sam:
I did that to tease you.
Your previous statement seemed to be in a such a spirit.
Mark:
Ok.
There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with it on the surface though, what do you not like about it?
sam:
If it would to be fully applied it would mean the complete disintegration of order.
Not just a specific order, all order.
Remember the evilness of The Joker in The Dark Knight?
Mark:
What is order and what about it is so great?
sam:
Tell that to your house.
Or huge societal system that brings you food, or lets you go to school, or builds roads.
Mark:
What makes those things good?
sam:
I like my food very much thank you.
Mark:
Nihilism is a radical school of thought, it's made to be different, it makes us question things we take for granted. Nihilists decide there is nothing, and thus nothing has inherent value.
sam:
No, nothing has value... at all
That is the end of thought.
The suicide of the mind.
Mark:
It is still possible to value something as a nihilist.
sam:
I would argue that then one is not a proper nihilist.
I would also argue that valuing at least something is kinda a good idea.
Mark:
In the end, what difference is there really between reality and all-pervasive illusion? It's more of a different view on life than anything else.
sam:
Take a step back from that thought and ponder it's implications.
Mark:
Then you are flawed in your thinking.
The inability to value is not part of nihilism.
sam:
But I can put value on things
In fact, I put a hell of a lot of value on things
Whether it is true or not, the Nihilistic way of mind is ultimately the most destructive way of thinking
It is also the most ego-centric
Mark:
I disagree, and your words stink of fear
sam:
Of course they do.
Because I know what it does to me when I succumb to it.
I know that without my faith I would have to give in to complete Nihilism as the only rational thing and therefore take my life.
This I will never do.
Mark:
Nothing has meaning does not equal nothing exists, nor does it equal morality does not exist.
It only equals meaning does not exist, and I would guess you'd be more susceptible to that than a nihilist
sam:
I don't want to live without meaning, morality or reality thank you very much
Mark:
Reality I've given up to uncertainty, morality is much better off acknowledged as relative, and meaning there is an endless supply of.
sam:
Perhaps my faith is but an imaginary shield defending me from the crushing weight of nothingness. Or it is the truth defending me from the crushing weight of nothingness. I cannot know.
Mark:
Say, for a second, that god did not exist. Rather than crush you, would this not lift you? For everything you felt in yourself throughout your life that you took to be god definitely existed. Just, it was you.
sam:
No, definitely not.
It would mean there was nothing behind what I felt, that it was empty, hollow. What I feel has value because I believe it comes from somewhere.
Mark:
And when you are god, or on equal footing with god, then your own meanings surely carry the weight of a universe with them as well? Whatever you value has value, simply because you value it?
sam:
If I was to be God, what a worthless God I would be.
Mark:
What does having travelled through a channel or two do to make value more valuable?
Why must it come from somewhere else and not you?
sam:
Because I am obviously such a fallen thing, Because I sense something greater outside of myself.
Mark:
Worthless? now I see the true heart of this issue.
Of course, without worth attributed to yourself, you would need to latch on to something else. You don't trust yourself, so you instead become a parasite on god's arm. You are the true nihilist, reality and morality are there for you maybe, but you as a being cannot believe in you.
sam:
I guess that is one way to look at it
But I do give myself worth
In fact, I give myself endless worth
Just as you say, worth from God
You say that everything in relative, then there must be something definitive
Mark:
Hah! You take God's worth, that is only as I have said
Everything is relative to the perspectives of every being out there. Every being is equal to god, we all are endless springs of value and creation
God may have been first, and he may be smarter and more powerful, but the only things with value are what are given value by beings capable of valuing. And he no longer has a monopoly on that.
sam:
And I shout for joy since I may. What all mankind has failed to do by themselves, I let God do for me
Mark:
And thus you are a nihilist. A scared one, who casts bridges of light and shadow to avoid looking too closely at it. Whether god exists or not, whether you know this or not, you are a nihilist
sam:
Yeeeeeeeaaaah
And you too, sound afraid
Afraid that God really exists, afraid that something above you is really out there.
So there we go, I believe in nothing so I believe in God, you believe in everything so you don't believe in God.
Mark:
Heh, I want god to exist.
sam:
I don't buy that.
Mark:
I don't need god, and his existence as a crutch annoys me. But I want him to be there for the sake of my friends, I want them to be able to exist forever if they want to.
God is the only way there can be an afterlife.
sam:
Well, good luck with the idea of yourself.
I shall now leave the digital prison that holds me captive.
Mark:
Goodbye, and sorry if I offended you.
sam:
Remember, the soul is fed by looking outward with love upon others.
Of course you didn't ^^
Elementary atheism is about as offensive as a glass of milk
Or humanism or whatever you call it
Neither of us progressed this conversation beyond where it was a century ago
We were just repeating the arguments of millions before us. Neither of us budging an inch. Quite juvenile of us both ^^
Mark:
Well, I don't know about any of those conversations, so...
I figure I was quite original
Interesting, huh?
PS: I totally can't remember how to change text colour...
Well, I went through a bit of that and got lost. Then i scrolled down and got even more lost just scrolling to the bottom of it... I'll try and read it after though. :(
ReplyDelete:( Sorry, I edited it to make it a bit easier to read.
ReplyDeleteJust swinging by, moseyin' along, reading the points you guys brought up here.
ReplyDeleteI think you're confusing nihilism with relativism. Relativism states that nothing has inherent meaning, so you just attach meaning to it. Nihilism means that nothing has inherent meaning and thus any meaning you attach to it is really meaningless, since nothing has any value. If you choose not to value anything, as nihilists do, then you can take someone's life, take your own life, do anything you want and not feel a hint of remorse. That is nihilism.
In the event of a zombie apocalypse, the nihilist stares out into the onrushing horde and opens his arms. "Let there be feasting."
I think your views on God are a little skewed, but again I think "everyone walks their own path," so it's up to you to work it out.
Just a hint of my own personal belief here, on relativism, if there is no higher authority but our own, then no people will ever agree on something, since no person's argument will ever hold more weight than another's. Someone will have to sacrifice their own view to agree with someone else's.
Otherwise, for example, say there's a married couple. One believes in staying committed and wants people to do the same, the other thinks it's okay to stay in a relationship but fool around on the side. These are basically incompatible beliefs when dealing with other people: the committed person, if they believe in divorce, would have to surround themselves with people who believe the same thing in order to be happy. This effectively destroys relativism, as you're creating a coherent social structure, anyway.
It's up to you to figure out why you think we have the Word of God (not organized religion and all its politically motivated decisions) to help us out there.
As to how I myself find value, to quote a bit of Shakespeare, "simply the thing I am shall make me live." God basically wrote the laws of physics and made the world where all I do is possible, and also gave me the free will to live my life as I choose. What I am today I owe to myself and the decisions I've made, but all the while God has been there propping me up. I choose to follow God, and that in itself gives me the power to choose and shape my destiny. I am shaped by God because I wanted to be, because I thought it would be best.
And this, I think, is how God wants it - he wants us to be able to choose. If he didn't, he would've simply removed our capacity for free will and had us worship him 24/7. But he did, and so I am human.
Interesting, but I disagree with you in too many ways to want to write out right now.
ReplyDeleteHahaha, I know that feeling. xD If you want though, when you get the time, feel free. Recognize that you're not likely to change my opinion but if you can, I applaud you. Like I said the other day - it is the salt of every belief to be able to be challenged and to be able to hold up. Goodness knows people have changed my beliefs before. :P
ReplyDeleteDebate certainly isn't only about changing beliefs for sure, I always try and tell people that.
ReplyDeleteI guess I was interpreting Nihilism as the base assumption that nothing has inherent value, which both relativism and apparently true Nihilism share. I was challenging him for not having what I would consider the strength of mind to see the better option. Still, I've never had the opportunity to talk to a true Nihilist, so making any sort of judgment on it seems silly. And personally, I think the zombie thing is a stylish way to go.
I would really prefer you told me what you think about god and why, because it confuses me and I want to understand it.
Relativism isn't a system, it's a belief. It doesn't even have much to do with anything in practice, it's like optimism or pessimism: a perspective. If the answer you come to because of that is chaos, that has nothing to do with it. Plus, the example you gave was silly, if they talked they could easily reach a compromise or decide it wouldn't work between them, same as now. Because that's the way it IS now. Everyone has different perspectives on everything, Relativism is just recognizing this and adding that EVERYTHING is perspective and there are no absolutes in there.
Ok, so you find value in the world as a mix between the value that you create and God's values?